If you are an entering student, you can start by assuming an average level of debt. But re financing Harvard despite ineligibility for US loans: Harvard has its own loan program through which it can offer loans to international students, so it might not be as tough as you suggest. Average indebtedness of 2019 graduates who incurred law school debt. However, as i noted in my post, many students switch out of pre-med for a variety of reasons. U of T manages to recruit excellent students and Alarie conjectures that “we probably win every head-to-head contest—there are more students at U of T who turned down Harvard than students at Harvard who turned down U of T.”. That is a really, really bad reason to go to a school. She decided to go to the LAC. Monthly repayment of almost $3000 for 10 years at a modest interest rate (7%). you really wont get more money in big law out of H than you will out Columbia, but if you get one of columbia's famous "fuck H" scholarships than you'll save a ton of money upon graduation and won't need to break your back working big law for as long (you're not gonna pay 300k+ debt in a … In the paper, The Cost of Debt, which is forthcoming in the Journal of Finance, we use panel data from 1980 to 2007 to estimate the marginal cost function for corporate debt.This is the first explicit estimate of the cost of debt function in the literature. It is not as if you are comparing Harvard with your local community college. As far as I understand, the person is unsure of where they want to practice, but like many 0Ls, they seem to want to practice in "big law" (for all this is). Every student who goes to Harvard was near the top of their class in high school. In 2016, Jones stumbled across an advertisement for the Project on Predatory Student Lending (PPSL) at Harvard Law School (HLS), and lawyers there helped him cancel his debt on the grounds that the Everest Institute had violated federal guidelines. A trained lawyer with specific expertise could start a business that is NOT a law firm. You can read more about her here. I expect that your friend is going to get very different answers from 0Ls and current students. Both of my DD’s roommates and her friends who are Stamps say it is an incredible program that you simply should not pass up. Run some loan repayment calculators to see how much you would pay over how many years to retire 100K of debt. Also Calvin Runnels a Stamps Scholar was named a Rhodes Scholar earlier in the year too! This roommates did great research at the CDC, study abroad etc. If medical school or law school is your goal, Stamps will help make that goal a bit easier and you will get an awesome, free education!! 2.0% of all undergraduate students (including freshmen) at Harvard University utilize federal student loans to help pay for their college education, averaging $5,978 per year. Please re-read (1) and (2) of opening post and you'll see discussion of prestige and money is painfully obviously relevant. Some say 4/5 years v. a law degree from Harvard lasting a lifetime (assuming, of course, you are alive to reap the benefits). Med school is nearly always full pay and will amount in the 100s of 1000s of dollars by the time you are done. We use variation in debt tax benefit curves to help us map out the marginal cost function. As far as I know, they have no regrets. Something else to keep in mind is that at Harvard, you'll be competing with 600 others in your class, at U of T 200. “my parents have said they will give me $100 a week and I will not have to work” http://www.ramblinwreck.com/genrel/091614aab.html I also loved that she was also a cheerleader at Georgia Tech at the same time. Historically U of T places a very small number of students in New York and Boston. Harvard Law professor’s ‘comfort woman’ article under review, journal says. Financially, my parents’ income hovered around 180k in 2016, which caused Harvard to give me 32k in aid. You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. Overall, I am aware that Georgia Tech is much more viable financially than Harvard. I am unsure whether they would be able to realistically finance either option, given pre-existing debt loads. . However, my parents are only willing to contribute 15k a year to my education, which would leave me with 20k in loans per year, for a total of approximately 80k over four years. Medical debt “totally traumatizes people” and “discourages people from going anywhere near the health care system,” said Robert Yates, director of the Global Health Programme and executive director of the Centre for Universal … I'm sure he would appreciate opinions that actually compare the two schools. The onus is on you to explain how onerous debt isn't a disadvantage and how prestige isn't a (commonly perceived) advantage. If you think there is a possibility that you may switch out of pre-med (many students do this), I would try to make Harvard work. 127:1447 Some debt collection agencies support mass litigation by engaging in “robosigning,” a practice by which debt collectors generate large num-bers of affidavits swearing to personal knowledge of the details of the debt underlying a lawsuit, where no such personal knowledge exists.13 Watch the full event online now! I am unsure whether they would be able to realistically finance either option, given pre-existing debt loads. I'm sure they'll read the thread and make the inquiry, with you having suggested it. Normally, I urge students to be debt-averse, but Harvard is one of those schools where if you can make it work financially, you should not turn down. The majority of law school graduates (over three quarters) feel that their degree was not worth the cost. If you attend school full-time, you should be able to become a lawyer in seven years four years as an undergraduate at a college or university, then three years in law school. Orlando, FL. Chloe Reichel (Communications Associate) Harvard Law Today April 7, 2020. I'm asking on behalf of a user who asked me. New data gives information for law school debt and earnings. Don’t add more now. There is an opportunity cost to giving up that national network, too. EDIT: Also, for the record, if it wasn't clear - I'm not asking for myself. I can't speak to the relative advantages of U of T vs. Harvard law schools. It has always been a goal/dream of mine to attend Harvard, and I still have a letter I wrote in the 4th grade noting these intentions. I am about 80% sure that I will continue to medical school, but if not, I will probably head to law school. My parents have said that if I attend Georgia Tech, they will place the 60k they are willing contribute to my education in an account for me to use for graduate school. On a brisk morning in October 2019, a group of students from top U.S. law schools gathered outside the offices of the corporate law firm DLA Piper in Washington, D.C. Plus, in a couple years from now, you'll think to yourself "damn, I coulda gone to Harvard - why didn't I do that?". Thus, I am about 95% sure I will be attending some form of graduate school unless my interests significantly change. With no funding, you could easily spend 200K at the end of 3 years for a top law school. I also know that Ontario law graduates are able to write the bar in New York or Massachusetts, and assuming they have been called to the Ontario, New York, or Massachusetts bar, they are free to take the Californian bar exam as well. But $100 000 is a lot to pay to have a way to impress people (plus, depending on the context and manner conveyed, mentioning you went to Harvard law could make you come across as arrogant or conceited and actually do you a disservice). In the states, there are firms where if you're not from HYS, you're not working there. $61,500: 100%: Charleston School of Law… GT is a very strong school. She aspired to med school. The Board of Editors for volume 70 of the Harvard Law Review (1956-1957), immortalized on the steps of Austin Hall.The author, only the third woman admitted to Review membership, stands in the fourth row, at upper left.. Now to positive news. I think you missed my point. If you went to Georgia Tech, you could major in a more established area at that school, like Chem or Bio, if Neuro didn’t offer enough. Harvard Law School is worth reasonable debt incurred in order to attend and graduate from the school. ETA: I really don't think UT is worth 30k a year. My Dad has said that he is willing to cosign on these loans if he must. After much deliberation, I have narrowed down my college options to two schools. At GT, there will be many other very strong students, however, it is much more likely that you will be in the top 50% or even top 25% of students there. My son went to Bama for undergrad and UAB for med school, but his residency is at Harvard. No school, whether it is an ivy or a lower-tier is worth that much in loans (especially if you are considering med school or law school (I am a lawyer too). If you want to work in Canada, go to U of T. A Harvard degree will be of no advantage in Canada. It is worth noting that the drop off from the "elite" firms would be higher in New York or Boston, such that if you are not in the portion of the class that lands a "big law job", you may have real problems with debt. Author's Analysis. You can be highly successful graduating from GT. Presumably they would be ineligible for U.S. Loans (which are non-dischargeable anyway), so Harvard might be tough. From his post, I can’t really tell whether he/she is “serious about medicine.” Let’s be real, what 18 year old knows for sure whether he’s set on being an MD. Think about it. The cost factor is a large one, and one that no one should ignore. Normally, I urge students to be debt-averse, but Harvard is one of those schools where if you can make it work financially, you should not turn down. Put $300k-400k of med school debt on top, and do you realize how limiting that is? Even with loan repayment assistance, $150,000+ of debt is no laughing matter and it will impact your personal life and employment decisions post law school. According to data that 180 ranked law schools reported to U.S. News, law students from the class of 2018 incurred an average debt of about $110,137. I know this increase will likely decrease my aid in my future years. Also, if I attend Georgia Tech, my parents have said they will give me $100 a week and I will not have to work, whereas I would at Harvard. Graduating with a large amount of debt isn't wise, in either country. GT is a very strong school. I am also concerned about the grade deflation of Georgia Tech versus the grade inflation of Harvard. If you think in terms of debt you might have if you're not able to get a job, I think you're fucked either way. Ask your parents if you go to GT, then will they help you with med school. Still a lot of money, but significantly more manageable. You can try the calculator using a variety of debt levels to create different scenarios. Stating that 'an extra 100k in debt for bragging rights from Harvard isn't worth it', is actually irrelevant. Is Harvard worth $80,000 of debt ? Is 80k a measly investment for a Harvard degree? This also applies to a law degree from Yale and Stanford. I've recently been asked by a member of our community on my thoughts between U of T Law and Harvard Law. Are you familiar with what you would be turning down? @GaBassin My daughter is a 4th year at Georgia Tech, we are out of state, two of her roommates are Stamps Scholars, 10 of her friends in Grand Challenges are Stamps Scholars, plus I worked in college admissions and my next door neighbor does UCSD med school admissions so I believe I can add some insight to your question. I wrote about it last week so search under my name for that post. Obama should raise the debt ceiling on his own By Eric A. Posner and Adrian Vermeule He did his work very well in HS. One of my DD’s roommates that is a Stamps Scholar is going to med school in the fall. “Maxed Out,” a new documentary examining the proliferation of debt in America, was shown at an advanced screening in Ames Courtroom. Likely debt will be $90k-100k+ for undergrad. I know this assumes OP has the same job upon graduating from either school. Further, there are few (if any) firms in Canada where you must have attended UT in order to get a job. Another thing is that it really doesn’t matter which college you graduate from when applying to med schools as med schools tend to care more about your GPA and MCAT test scores plus your preparatory EC’s. Also with good study skills, my DD has gotten much better grades at GT than she ever did in high school so the grade deflation issues at GT you have to take with a grain of salt. So the question is, do you want 100K of personal debt before you even begin graduate work? If this student wasn’t serious about medicine, that might be the case. Guess where she ended up for med school? The debt can be paid off in less than 10 yrs. Would open doors to any med school. Having that amount on top of med school or law school costs will simply be crippling to your life for a very long time so don’t do it. WHY would this student need $300 a WEEK from his or her parents? Both Stamps scholar roommates have gotten a 4.0 the entire time at GT so if you are worried about grades, chances are that if you are selected for Stamps you have what it takes to make the grades for med school. Obviously go to UofT and treat the other students at UofT like you are doing them a favour. I don't understand why this turned into a discussion about prestige vs. money. This amount is 17.2% higher than the $5,099 amount borrowed by freshmen. and 35k being parent contribution. Harvard is very appealing. I would give my son as a reward the same money that would be spent on him if he continued living at home, so that he was completely calm, could save for buy a home, etc. My advice to the person would be (1) don't pick a school based on prestige, (2) keep the Harvard offer for bragging rights, and (3) go to UofT. At Harvard you would be one of many, and I don’t think it’s worth the debt, especially with possible med school or law school in your future. Similar stats, 3.66/170,  in queue on 20 Jan. That is, if you do well. There are other choices (which I've already talked to the individual about and even advocated for, and they decided, of their own initiative to eliminate them), but they have said that the decision for them basically boils down to these two. I believe comments, to the extent people have more time than I do to offer them at the moment, would be useful on three main prongs: (1): The advantages / disadvantages of going to Harvard Law School versus University of Toronto Faculty of Law. Depending on your friend's financial situation, he or she may be pleasantly surprised. If official financing remains constant, net flows tied to long term debt with official creditors are expected to be $25 billion ($120b disbursements minus $71b principal repayment and $24b in interests) and net flows with private creditors amount to -$252 billion, as there will be principal and interest payments due ($170b and $82b, respectively) but no disbursements … If you want to go to professional school, I would agree. UT is the market leader by a long shot in Canada in terms of tuition, but I don't think that it is providing that much superior an education to other schools. Btw…your undergrad won’t matter at all for med school or for your future career as a physician. Will Harvard open doors and offer opportunities that I will regret missing for the rest of my life? You are talking about $100K financial responsibility on your part for undergraduate. However, is Harvard worth 80k in debt? Yes, it’s true that Harvard has had that reputation, but I wouldn’t go there as a deciding factor. We were able to help our son with med school because he took huge merit for undergrad. Maybe today or next week... Maybe it’s my anxiety talking, but they have been issuing offers since December, I wonder/worry if they’d fill out the entire class already before they even finish calculating my GPA. If you’re absolutely sure that you want to pursue either med or law school and see yourself having a great chance at success with either choices, especially very top law schools, then I’d lean toward Harvard. I would appreciate if people could weigh in with their thoughts. For inquiries and comments, please contact us at bankruptcyproject@law.harvard.edu. I don't know a great deal about HLS financial aid policies, but Harvard has a lot of financial resources generally. There is no set requirement for an undergraduate course of study necessary to get into law school, but experts advise that you take courses that sharpen your critical thinking and writing skills. Personally I prefer $ over prestige (especially when talking about an amount of debt that could cause serious financial problems or limit the availability of viable life choices), but I do recognize that this is a subjective value judgement. Due to the “negative amortization effect,” a participant in Program B will have a higher outstanding loan debt after 5 years, and must remain in a public service job for 5 more years in order to realize any forgiveness benefit. It’s no secret going to law school is a big investment in both time and money. Of course we are from diferent cultures, in my country normally the parents pay for College not the students, the students normally don’t work if not absolutely necessary. Focus on Harvard or JHU or UCSF or similar for your medical residency…that will matter. In terms of career goals, I am planning to major in neurosicence with pre-med, where Harvard is ranked #1 in the world while Georgia Tech just began offering this major in Fall 2017. You are looking more likely at $100K. In your situation Georgia Tech is the better choice because Harvard will cost you & your family $180,000 versus Georgia Tech which is offering you the world (full ride COA, laptop & $12,000 in addition to special mentoring & conferences). That network and power of a Harvard degree is worth 80K over a lifetime IMO. Just for the record - I know a U of T grad who turned down Harvard. That’s a tough call… Whether you end up going to a med school or a law school, you have to remember that we’re talking about another, and much larger, loan debt, especially a med school. There’s hope for me then, yay! I’m willing to bet that that’s the same for its law school. Even then, you’re most likely looking at spending first 10-15 years of your professional life paying off the debt with disciplined living. Had a lot of med school interviews and is ending up at a great med school (I don’t want to say to protect her privacy). $150 000 is $1700 per month with the same parameters. It's hard to fully appreciate that until you're actually paying it back. $80k in debt is going to be a tough way to start medical/law/graduate school. The rest would have to be loans cosigned by your parents, which you say they are somewhat reluctant to do. Why would it??? Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled, http://www.ramblinwreck.com/genrel/091614aab.html, Inferior med school and law school prep (relative to H). Debt is life-ruining. For example, Columbia Law’s average debt (without tuition discounts) is only $34,100 more than Yale’s when student loans come due. My understanding is that very few people do 10 years in US biglaw. At least if you went to Harvard, you could tell people "I went to Harvard law" and they'd be impressed. “Credit cards are transforming middle class America, and … I would try to do very well at GT, and consider Harvard and multiple other schools for graduate school. Contrastingly, Georgia Tech is offering me a full ride (Covering the entire COA) plus an $1,100 stipend for a laptop, $12,000 enrichment funding (Travel, research, etc. The advantages of a Harvard degree are substantial, long term & worldwide. As your folks don’t think that the prestige and intangibles of an undergraduate degree from Harvard are worth the upcharge, I would take Georgia Tech, especially given the many perks that are offered. Columbia Law is a case in point. Has your friend spoken to a financial aid officer at Harvard Law about his or her situation? So you might as well go to one that will really shock people when you tell them about it as you're making their latté. "Law school student debt has ballooned, rising from about $95,000 among borrowers at the average school in 2010 to about $112,000 in 2014," Noam Schieber of the New York Times reported. would be hard to match. But ya, I'd go to Harvard. They would like the collective wisdom of the community, and I understand their desire, given if I was in the person's shoes, I probably would have chosen Harvard at the time, and now, I'm not so sure. Then try for 300K or 500K. That’s what matters. To receipt this amazing scholarship, I’m sure he worked very hard, Regarding grade inflation: You are likely to be an average student at Harvard. In terms of financial realities, I believe they would be looking at about ~$150,000 in total post-law school debt for Toronto (considering undergraduate debt) and $250,000 in total post-law school debt for Harvard. It is not as if you are comparing Harvard with your local community college. Maybe you should re-read (1) and (2) a little closer and you'll see how that doesn't answer the questions, nor is it helpful in anyway. These schools are Harvard University and Georgia Tech. However, I do know that there’s a definite advantage of having graduated from Harvard for Harvard Med School admissions where the largest percentage of admitted students are from their own college. Georgia Tech wants all their students to succeed and they especially want their Stamps Scholars to have as much success as possible. The average principal student loan balance at graduation of borrowers from the HLS Class of 2020 was $170,866, and will increase by about 4% per year after that. No reason for substantial debt…none. In terms of financial realities, I believe they would be looking at about ~$150,000 in total post-law school debt for Toronto (considering undergraduate debt) and $250,000 in total post-law school debt for Harvard. My Dad is heavily leaning towards this option while my Mom has left my decision entirely for me. He never said anything about bragging rights. Georgia Tech, like Purdue, is a poorer man’s Caltech. Stamps is much more than financial aid. $250 000 is a lot of money. $60k in the bank is going to be a great way to start medical/law/graduate school. There are the occasional Harvard or Yale students at Toronto law firms as well. With Harvard, you’re buying (or borrowing for) its prestige, network connections, possible use of legacy for your own children, etc. Will the easier grading at Harvard significantly bolster my acceptance into a good graduate school? Photograph courtesy of … At $317,249 in debt, Columbia Law grads are the most burdened. About grade deflation/inflation. You’re going to have a lot of debt for med school. Nor does it offer you access to as vast an alumni network. I think there is at least an argument to be made that Harvard is worth 52k a year. If you don't get a good job after going to either school, you're also pretty much equally screwed. ), but would be free. Also, aid from Harvard is expected to decrease after year one (due to mother’s pay raise), so total COA for Harvard will exceed $160,000 (probably more like $180,000 due to anticipated decrease in financial aid). Percent of grads with debt. UPI 12 Feb 2021. Or the other person could be like me and think "you went to Harvard and took on $100 000 in additional debt to get a job you could have gotten by going to U of T? If you want to work in the U.S., then clearly you'll be at an advantage with a Harvard degree. After 5 years, a LIPP participant will have $23,572 less outstanding debt than a participant starting with a comparable debt level and income in Program A. All I can tell you is that you’d still have to work your butts off at either places. ... is very close to what we would ordinarily call debt slavery,” said Harvard Law School professor Noah Feldman, according to the Harvard Crimson earlier this week. This thread gives me some hope. Also, my Mom received a 20k raise in 2017, so my family’s income is now over 200k. However, that might not be the case if a Harvard Law School graduate thereafter pursues a career in a field that is not related to law or business. You will be in an elite category and the travel and research opportunities, priority housing, enrichment funding, etc. I'm also not advocating for either school. That reputation is from several years ago, and I’m not so sure that that’s really the case today. i'd go with harvard or Yale over UofT. Thus, I would still need to pay around 40k a year with around 5k being student contribution (Federal work study etc.) Every employer in Canada knows UofT is "the best school in Canada" and the biggest advantage going to Harvard would probably give him in Canada would be that of impressing the ignorant. @thumper1 Pyke, April 4, 2013 in School Comparisons. His most recent book, also co-written with Posner, is titled “The Executive Unbound: After the Madisonian Republic” (Oxford University Press, 2011). Nevertheless, while discussion may be interesting & enlightening, the clear choice is Georgia Tech with the Stamps Scholarship as Harvard, MIT & Stanford will always be around for graduate school. the debt factor doesn't apply to me though. Contact the Harvard University Tax office – (617) 495-8500; Summer Public Interest Funding Documentation Federal Work Study – (617) 495-8500 (Receive a W-2 from the Harvard Office of the Controller) Grant – (617) 495-0643 or spif@law.harvard.edu (U.S. Citizens will receive no documentation; if needed Contact SPIF Office. That’s one thing. $80k in debt is going to be a tough way to start medical/law/graduate school. Many people who go to Harvard Law School are going to end up in a Biglaw job at some point. I can't speak to the relative advantages of U of T vs. Harvard law schools. Then the answer to the question becomes completely subjective. I think that the answer is no. ETA2: my reasoning for why Harvard is worth 52k is not necessarily that it is that much better a school, just that it is more the market average for T20 law schools in the states, in spite of providing arguably the best education in the US. Trust me, you will not have any regrets and Harvard or any other ivy will be there for you for graduate school ((I know because my husband went to Yale law and his identical twin went to Harvard law). Go to Harvard for med school- that is what one of my favorite Stamps Scholar, Maria Diaz Ortiz did (she just finished her 2nd year). By comparison, the "elite" firms in New York or Boston would pay $125,000 to $160,000 for first year associates. I don’t advocate for more debt…but $60,000 will be fund less than one year of medical or law school…maybe…by the time this student gets there. Florida A&M University. Do you think med schools give a rat’s patootie about how your major is or isn’t ranked at your undergrad??? Maybe the answer is to stay in the biglaw job until the debt is gone, while building legal expertise in a field that would allow him to transition to non-law business or a corporate law position. Curious, sonandera, what firms hire only Harvard grads? I should note, that if the person was to go to another Canadian law school, they would be likely looking at $90,000 to 100,000 in debt due to pre-existing debt loads. That said, the debt differences aren’t as pronounced as you might expect. As others have pointed out, you are wrong in your math. I'm not sure they fully appreciate the lifestyle differences between working in New York or Boston versus working in Toronto (or elsewhere in Canada). Not every Harvard grad is going to get a biglaw job. Yes, but not in your case. I'm a practicing lawyer and U of T alumni. There was a poster several years ago whose daughter was debating a full ride at a LAC (Rhodes, I think, or maybe Centre) and Yale. ), annual retreats, a two week expedition before freshman year to an international location, priority housing, and annual trips to various domestic and international locations. By the time that happened, two years later, his debt had reached $13,700. Forgot to mention, Roscoe Stamps is a Georgia Tech grad, he takes especially good care of his GT Stamps Scholars.
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